Freemasons

As a member of a craft lodge and a member of AMORC (Rosicrucian Lodge), i would be keen to have a diligent conversation about this, and actually im upset that the GL using CR 21 disallows participation in such a body.(why dont they block lions, rotary, kiwianis etc)

Certain subjects pertaining to this i find most interesting -

Alchemical symbolism and Philosophy (hermetic) inherrent in both

The name, They both use Rose Croix, Rose Cross and there are bodies that are Masonic Roiscrucian groups (SRIA etc)

AMORC Has never claimed to be a "quasi masonic body", and they are run entirely differently (lodge ritual etc)

So if Keith or one of the other senior and learned brethern would like to have a good discussions about this, i would gladly listen to any and all comments and reply happily

S & C

Hi,

I am a member of SRIA,

The Rose Croix may use similar words as in Rose and Croix (cross) but the ceremonial in both is vastly different and has no connection.

In the SRIA (I presume same in AMORC) you study; Numbers, Philosophy, Alchemy and Religion in the first four Grades. There is absolutely no study in Rose Croix (apart from studying to learn the ritual).

I would be interested to learn a little more about AMORC although I would have no need to join it. Perhaps you could spread some light about it, I for one would be interested.

I took this from the Transactions of the Masters and Past Masters Lodge No. 130:

The Grand Losdge of New Zealand has strong objections to A.M.O.R.C. and the following information was supplied by the Grand Secretary in response to an enquiry:

"When the Board of General Purposes issued its instructions in 1958 it had before it reports of enquiries made in Gt Britain and America and the action it then took was the same as that taken by UGLE and the Grand Lodges in America and Australia.

A.M.O.R.C., in spite of its advertised claims is really a fairly recent society, formed by a Mr. Spencer Lewis and his family. Its form is imitative of Freemasonry to the degree that membership of it is incompatible with membership of the Craft.

In addition, A.M.O.R.C. is affilliated to other Quasi-Masonic bodies whose activities are not approved by regular Freemasonry"

Bodies such as Kiwanis, Lions, Rotary etc are service clubs pure and simple.

You may not retain membership of A.M.O.R.C. while you are a member of the Craft. To do so is a Masonic Offence. While you are a Freemason, you are subject to its laws Please remember your obligation!

So I would say you have to make a choice, Freemasonry or A.M.O.R.C., you cannot remain in both

_________________
Keith Walker
Kaimanawa 426
Waikato Lodge of Research 445

Thanks for that informative Keith, our rules do specify as you state but under NZ Law, there is nothing preventing someone joining both (and I am not condoning it) but we do live a in a society which has a very specific Bill of Rights in regards to these things.

_________________
Hadyn Nicholls PM
Homewood Lodge 447
Recruitment & Publicity Officer
http://www.homewood-lodge.net.nz
Wellington District Education Officer

Hadyn, this is nothing to do with the Bill of Rights, it is to do with Masonic Jurisprudence.

No doubt under our Bill of Rights, you can join whatever you want, however according to the NZ Book of Constitution it is a Masonic Offence for a Brother to attend, support or associate with any organisation not recognised by Grand Lodge but which purports to mimic or copy Masonic Ritual or Ceremonies. Our BoC is recognised by the High Court as the regulations by which Freemasonry is governed in New Zealand.

The ruling on A.M.O.R.C. was made in 1958 and has not been rescinded. If you don't believe me, check with the Grand Secretary

_________________
Keith Walker
Kaimanawa 426
Waikato Lodge of Research 445

Keith

You are only posting what most know, S & C wants to discuss things, Not make us join AMORC! there is nothing in your Particular Obligation or GL rules that says we cannot have an interesting civalised philosophical discussion. Or perhaps the way you read things there is?

S & C

I am interested to learn more and perhaps you will aslo be able to learn more yourself!

S&C - R+C = LIGHT (what a handle!) says that he is a Freemason and a member of A.M.O.R.C.

I pointed out that membership of that body by a Freemason is a Masonic Offence and renders him liable to Masonic Discipline.

The NZ Board of General Purposes considered this in 1958 and the action it took was the same as that taken by the United Grand Lodge of England and the Grand Lodges in America and Australia.

In the Final Charge of the First Degree, we are told: "Your Obedience must be proved by a strict observance of our laws and regulations . . ."

The Brother in question says that he is aware of the ruling, nevertheless, he is ignoring it. which in my opinion says little for his integrity.

_________________
Keith Walker
Kaimanawa 426
Waikato Lodge of Research 445

Keith

Without re stating the obvious, we are not sitting in Lodge with him, we are discussing things on a Forum, please tell me where it states in any of our obligations that you cannot have a discussion about things that GL do not agree with in a Public Forum!

I have no argument if I was to participate in a 'Lodge meeting or an AMORC meeting' But this is simply a Forum. For discussion and sharing of information. Please try and distinguish between the two.

whats the deal with this...

The Brother in question says that he is aware of the ruling, nevertheless, he is ignoring it. which in my opinion says little for his integrity.

What has this got to do with the conversation...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No offence, but im positive that you are innocent until found guilty, by the calibre of that remark, youve already built the gallow and tied the 13 runs of the hang mans noose...

Middle pillar - yes it sounds that the studies of both groups are similar, as i imagine are all rosicrucian studies to a point. I have only been a member of AMORC for about 2 years, and find the studies very helpfu, being that im not a Dogmatic religon believer, i find that the spiritual side of these studies is more "attune" to way of thinking. i will send a PM to you soon and we shall conduct our own convo, as it seems, if it were up to others, "i would be getting a flogging around the fleet..."

BAH - my ingerity, very bemusing...

If there was a masonic rosicrucian society here i would happily join that and leave amorc, but as far as im aware there is none. also, i have informed some of the senior brethern in my lodge, as to my activities, and being that they are very well known in the masonic community, they have said nothing to me, i am not doing this with mercenary means, or on the quite, so i dont see the problem here really...

S & C

FYI the SRIA do have Colleges in New Zealand, you have to be a Master Mason and a believer in the Trinitarian faith, if you want more info please pm me.

The last Supreme Magus of The SRIA is now living in New Zealand having retired there this year at the age of 83! A remarkable and very Christian man, I know he is very involved in assisting the strengthening of a lot of the Christian esoteric orders, including The SRIA.

S & C

By the small chance you are not aware what SRIA stands for it is The Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia.

I went straight to the nub of the matter which is that someone, fully aware of what he is doing, (he even complained about the relevant ruling in our BoC,) has quite deliberately broken our laws, ignoring the Final Charge of the First Degree which I have already quoted.

Why do we have laws and regulations, not only in the Craft but in society at large if they can be ignored with impunity? That is the way to anarchy.

Innocent until found guilty doesn't enter into it, he has admitted his guilt himself

In his post dated 21 March he said and I quote:

"As a member of a craft lodge and a member of AMORC (Rosicrucian Lodge), i would be keen to have a diligent conversation about this, and actually im upset that the GL using CR 21 disallows participation in such a body.(why dont they block lions, rotary, kiwianis etc)"

If a Freemason openly and deliberately flouts the laws of the Craft which he has promised to obey, he is "a wifully perjured individual, void of all moral worth and totally unfit to be received into this . . . society of men who prize honour and virtue above the external advantages of rank and fortune". Which, to my mind puts him in a particular pigeonhole

Having made my position quite clear, there is nothing as far as I can see to stop discussions on this or any other topic on this forum. It is after all open to all, Freemasons and non-masons alike

_________________
Keith Walker
Kaimanawa 426
Waikato Lodge of Research 445

thanks for that, i had a look around before beginning my R+C studies and asked some people, and found nothing about the SRIA, really you have to believe in the trinity to be a member? isnt that the same for the rose croix degrees and beyond?

If you could send me an email or webpage address that would be appreciated, are the studies (monographs etc) the same in the SRIA, as they might be in the AMORC?, hang on a tick will PM you about them...as some here may find it inappropriate ah keith...

Keith, having just read the torrent, and obviously you are passionate about this, i feel that I and middle pillar will conduct this conversation privately, which is a shame because yourself and the public will miss out on what is a beautiful school of thought, and has deeply ingrained within it "the study of oneself"

No offence Keith, you dont know me, so dont ever question my integrity or who i am,Or anyone else for the matter. (I am deeply insulted by your remarks about my integrity).

Regards