Freemasons

I don't aplolgise for my remarks, I ask you to look very closely at what you undertook when you joined Freemasonry. I repeat that you may not remain a member of AMORC and a member of the Craft What I fail to understand is how you can quite deliberately flout the laws by which we are governed. Look very closely at your conscience and the promises you made quite freely and which you are now denying. Feel insulted, I feel quite disgusted.

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Keith Walker
Kaimanawa 426
Waikato Lodge of Research 445

GOOD ON YA

As am i, disgusted by the Impertinent over tone of your unmasonic behaviour...

we will never sit in lodge together, that is for sure. sad really.

And just a quick query, is there a shop where i can purchase such a mighty stead form which you cast the aspersions of indefatigable negativity?

Bring on the flame war - calm down people and Keith, stop aggravating, we can see everyone's point of view, we live in a free country and this forum is open to all and we encourage open conversation, it helps everyone learn more.
We don't make a point of deleting posts either but if they get inflammatory, we will.

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Hadyn Nicholls PM
Homewood Lodge 447
Recruitment & Publicity Officer
http://www.homewood-lodge.net.nz
Wellington District Education Officer

Thanks for that Haydn, but unfortunately this coversation will be ceased and all further input to this forum halted from my end, just as in life, i try to surround myself with the best people, and shun negativity of this calibre.

[b]Footnote, i also note that on the Masonic forum of light, Keith has his own topic warning him about this BS behaviour, maybe he should look at himself, and wonder, why do people think that i am a Masonic forum bully?

or better yet someone here discipline him for his comments...

You know the real tragedy is simply that S & C wanted to engage in open conversation about Rosicrucianism and its relation to Rose Croix and other masonry. All he got was a 'good talking too' about how he is not an honorable mason because he belongs to AMORC.

Keith yet again you have managed to frighten off another open minded interesting member. I doubt if S & C will be back he is now happily posting over at MFoL.

I have no doubt you say things thinking that they are asbsolutely correct however on an Open Forum we do not need a 'Stickler Prick' we want open minded well informed information from 'EVERYONE' that is how we learn things! Or is it simply that you know absolutely everything and cannot be bothered or just will not talk civally to anyone who is not regular in your eyes?

Haydn,

Potentially you have a good Forum, it needs a few more members but that will come, I wish you all the best but I dont think I will be spending much time here. You have one stickler prick with too much influence too many here for my liking. Sorry.

And, it should be noted, that Keith is materially wrong.

As of a letter I received from the Grand Secretary in 2005, the only organisation that is considered to be verboten is Co-Freemasonry. I specifically asked about AMORC.

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Kellerman Lecturer, 2004
Australia New Zealand Masonic Research Council

My information was taken from the Transactions of the Masters' and Past Masters' Lodge No. 130, and specifically page 262 of their publication "Questions and Answers, Second Edition, 1983." .'The following quotation is taken verbatim from that.

"Has the Grand Lodge of New Zealand any objection to the so-called Rosicrucian Society known as AMORC?

This is an organisation which advertises extensively in the newspapers and refers to "the dark continents of the mind" and to "a split second in eternity"

The Grand Lodge of New Zealand has strong objections to it and the following information was supplied by the Grand Secretatry in response to an enquiry.

When the Board of General Purposes issued its instructiuons in 1958 it had before it reports of enquiries made in Great Britain and America, and the action it then took was the same as that taken by the United Grand Lodge of England and the Grand Lodges of America and Australia.

A.M.O.R.C., in spite of its advertised claims is really a fairly recent society,formed by a Mr Spencer Lewis and his family. Its form is imitative of the Craft that membership of it is incompatible with membership of the Craft.

In addition, A.M.O.R.C. is affiliated to other Quasi-Masonic bodies whose activities are not approved by regular Freemasonry."

Collected Ruling No. 21 in the current (2004) print of the NZ Book of Constitution states

"Quasi-Masonic Organisations.

It is a Masonic offence for a Brother to attend, support or associate with any organisation not recognised by Grand Lodge but which purports to mimic or copy the Masonic Ritual or Ceremony."

If the B oard of General Purposes has changed its stance on this , I have not been informed and shall make further enquiries.

If the New Zealand Board of General Purposes has changed its decision, I am unaware of it

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Keith Walker
Kaimanawa 426
Waikato Lodge of Research 445

Interesting comments Keith and valid points, you are correct however, have to play devils advocate on this one. The GL do not have jurisdiction on what someone does in their personal life, yes they are not approved of by GL, but this cannot stop someone fro joining. We have something called the Bill of Rights in New Zealand which protects people from discrminiation and 'right to freedom of association' which brings up another intersting point to mull over when we say we have to conform to the rules of the realm as stated in the third degree.......

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Hadyn Nicholls PM
Homewood Lodge 447
Recruitment & Publicity Officer
http://www.homewood-lodge.net.nz
Wellington District Education Officer

THe New Zealand High Court has already accepted our Book of Constitution as being the laws by which the members of the NZ Craft are governed. There is plenty of legal precedence for that.

Sure the Bill of Rights allows you to join pretty well any organisation you like, individual organisations can then say that if you do join certain organisations, then you can no longer be a member of theirs. It cuts both ways. THere is nothing in the Bill of Rights to stop me joining the Co-Masons for example. However, were I to do so, I would expect the full weight of Masonic discipline to fall on me - from a very great height!

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Keith Walker
Kaimanawa 426
Waikato Lodge of Research 445

Given that second edition of 'Questions and Answers' was published in 1983 - 24 years ago (and itself is almost entirely based on the 1st edition of 1972), I would have thought that it would be reasonably obvious that Q&A is no longer a reliable guide. Reading Q&A, a person comes across a lot of material that is so obviously dated, such as the discussion on smoking in lodgerooms during ritual.

The reason GLNZ banned membership in AMORC is not (as far as I have been able to uncover) due to their own investigation but rather following on from a UGLE prohibition which GLNZ adopted without any real thought on the matter.

Regarding the right of GL to prohibit membership in other bodies. I would agree that GL does not have the right to prevent people joining Comasonry, but it does have the right to say that if you do, you can't work with us. Its like if you play a game of footy, if you play, you play by the rules of the game and don't just make it up as you want.

Before we get too uptight about our brother's membership of AMORC, please acknowledge that we see the BoC violated regularly - brethren wearing QSM's or service miniatures is just one example.

The Rose Croix disppointed me as it obviously has others. I joined because I thought it would open a whole new world of learning and challenge. The only thing I learnt was the ritual. After 3 years I resigned and I believe nothing has changed to draw me back.

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Jeff Allan, P.G.Lec
Librarian, Hawkes Bay Research Lodge No305
Secretary, The Heretaunga Lodge No73

Keith says: "In addition, A.M.O.R.C. is affilliated to other Quasi-Masonic bodies whose activities are not approved by regular Freemasonry"

Where do you get this one from. Please explain.

My information came from the Grand Secretary who told me

" The issue here is whether the Rosicrucians are an unrecognised Masonic Body or a Quasi-Masonic Body. I have spoken to MW Bro. Ray Duncan PGM on this and he points out that the Rosicrucians do not claim to be Masonic nor are they Masonic. Thus they do not fall in with the likes of Co-Masonry or French Grand Orient Masonry. The Rosicrucians have not been declared quasi-masonic but there is no doubt they are affiliated to quasi-masonic orders which makes membership of the order problematic for a Freemason and is discouraged. Simply put, the Rosicrucians are not a recognised side order of Freemasonry nor is it considered a Masonic or quasi-masonic organisation. It is seen as an independent organisation that has affiliations with quasi-masonic orders and therefore membership of the Rosicrucians is discouraged"

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Keith Walker
Kaimanawa 426
Waikato Lodge of Research 445

My great and unequivocal objections to AMORC is that they persist in calling themselves THE Rosicrucian Order, implying that they are the only form of Rosicrucianism, or at least the only form worth considering. Unfortunately such an attitude influences other people's understanding of what Rosicrucianism is- as exampled by the GS's e-mail to Keith. AMORC is not the only Rosicrucian Order out there, and it is far from the oldest or the most legitimate of them.

However, that as it may well be, I am also curious to know what these "quasi-masonic orders" are that AMORC is allegedly affiliated to. Names of these groups would have been good. As it is, it currently stands as vague and unprovable allegations against AMORC and as such can have no moral weight or authority until specifics can be produced.

It should be noted that I have no particular interest in AMORC (and am in fact quite critical of it from a philosophic and historical standpoint), but to place prohibitions on the group based on incorrect information, dogmatically enforced by people with no knowledge of the organisation or understanding of the environment, is a situation which can not be let past without challenging.

Roel

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Kellerman Lecturer, 2004
Australia New Zealand Masonic Research Council